7 Royal Caribbean Navigator of the Seas First-Time Cruisers Cruise Reviews

Overall: We took the Navigator of the Seas (Royal Caribbean) to the Western Caribbean: Coco Cay, Cozumel, Grand Cayman starting November 22nd, 2015. We had about 25 family members, and I was travelling with my wife and three kids staying ... Read More
Overall: We took the Navigator of the Seas (Royal Caribbean) to the Western Caribbean: Coco Cay, Cozumel, Grand Cayman starting November 22nd, 2015. We had about 25 family members, and I was travelling with my wife and three kids staying in two staterooms (#9358, #9360). Apparently there are hard-core crusiers whose loyalty approaches religious ferver and then there is everyone else. So after my first cruise I fall squarely into the ‘non cruiser’ camp. The constant upselling, the rampant waiting in lines even after paying for ‘premium’ services, and the lack of any luxury put me into the ‘not a fan’ group. That said, my room was reasonable and clean, many of the crew tried hard, and as a family we had several amazing memories… though these were made because we were together, not because of the cruise. It strikes me that cruiselines have to cut prices so much because of competition that they basically lose money on the cabins, and have to recoup it during the cruise. The constant barrage of up-selling and add-ons is really wearying, makes the cruise unpleasant and ugly, and is really noticeable. It removes any romance or luxury from what is really an amazing boat sailing to wonderful places, so just considering the environment, it is telling that they cause you to forget about the sunsets and beautiful water and focus on them. I’d rate the experience as about a 3.5 out of 10. I should note, generally speaking I prefer exclusivity (and am more than willing and able to pay). I had wanted to upgrade to a suite, but as the room was a gift from in-laws, I didn’t want to disrespect anyone or break up the group. I believe we paid about $2700 per room (x2) plus 18% tipping ($1000), in addition to the $500 airfare (x5), and a hotel rooms in Fort Lauderdale of about $150 (x2). For that we had $500 in room credit, but with various drinks, dinners, excursions were out another $1000. So the total cost was about $10,500 for a family of 5 for a week. Of note: on the first day, I tipped the room steward $40, and two bartenders $20. I also tipped our 2 dining room attendants another $120 at the end of the week. The good: As many of my comments are negative, let me start with the positive. I hope I’m being balanced and fair, but also giving you insight as to what to expect without any particular axe to grind: • The room (Balcony Stateroom) was clean and efficient. It was a bit sparse, but highly utilitarian. The steward, Rolly, was unobtrusive, and kept the room very clean, organized, and in towels. That said it was an aluminum box without anything special. • Another high-spot was our dining room waiter: Apurv (“AP”). AP was funny, engaged, and able to follow through on bringing a cake to my daughter on her birthday (please note: I tipped heavily and paid for the cake). He was also able to handle the various family members coming and going, and a grandmother who was a bit neurotic. Many kudos to him. • The ship itself is a marvel. I enjoyed walking around and see every floor, every bar, every restaurant and shop. It was pretty cool. • Finally during an excessive line (more on this) a housecleaning woman, Elena B, who had no business helping us, stopped, asked what the issue was, and then stayed with us (and about 20 others) who were waiting. This is spite that it wasn’t her issue and she could have ignored us – as most of the staff were doing. Many kudos to her. And now onto the not-so-good: • Service. Service is horrible, generally speaking. After not buying a drink package, I quickly bought the most expensive option as service was so poor, I figured I need to get the special sticker for attention. I could not be more wrong. Bartenders seemingly slow roll everything, and the constant need to check (and recheck) your ‘seapass’ is maddeningly inefficient. There were times I would wait 20 minutes to get a drink – in spite of having only 2 people in front of me. This has to be a corporate decision as there are never more than 2 bartenders working even at hugely crowded hours (e.g. 1 PM during a cruising day). I went so far as to tip two different bartenders $20 and asked them to remember me, which improved service, but this was on top of paying $67/day for any drink. Also if you just want water or a soda… you have to wait in line. Christ on a stick! I paid, I understand 8 other people who also paid want Pina Coladas. Couldn’t their just be a vending machine where I could insert my card and get a drink/water (there are two hidden machines in the WindJammer, BTW, and so I often resorted to walking up 7 or 8 decks from whatever I was doing to get a diet coke, or water). • Excursions. I scuba dive, with my son. I had to register with the desk. Each time the line was 20-25 people deep. Finally at the last minute (4 PM the day before) I got to the desk at 3:45 and was only #3 in line, so I waited. And waited. And waited. After the line grew to more than 25, I started asking people at customer service. I went to the phone and starting calling various service people. All to no avail. The people at customer service (who were equally besieged) had no interest in helping us. Only when a housecleaning person, Elena B, saw me trying to start the computers and mockingly making announcements to the amusement of those in line, did she come over and ask what was wrong. She called a Manager, and after about 5 minutes, the person “Melanie” came to the desk @ 4:32 (32 minutes late). Instead of apologizing she yelled at us for not having an orderly line to the side. I haven’t been much tempted to punch a service employee as they have incredibly onerous jobs, but this was one time I almost changed my policy and essentially decided Royal Caribbean could ‘suck it’. Even then, just as illustration, it was 4:50 before I was helped for a 3 minute thing. Seriously. I had to wait in line for an hour, just to do something that should have all been done ahead of time (The cruise will say they need to see my PADI card, etc… but we had to fill out all of this information AGAIN – for the 3rd time—at the dive shop). o Incidentally, the diving in Cozumel was wonderful. In spite of a 50 minute ride in some heavy chop to pick up a random hotel passenger, the 14 of us had 2 excellent guides, and some really excellent cave and drift dives. • Tendering. In Grand Cayman we got a tender ticket. The process was horrible. Long lines (45 minutes) just to get off the boat, and from the time I left my room to the dock was just over 1 hour 30 minutes. Again, I get there are lines. But Royal Caribbean clearly knows that 4000 people want to go ashore, but have only 2 doors to get people off and away. My advice: avoid any cruise/port where you have to tender. I’m on vacation to relax, have a drink, soak in some sun. Not wait in lines for Royal Caribbean to get their act together. • Guest Services. We asked for our 2nd stateroom to be decorated on Thursday as it was our daughter’s birthday. It never happened, and hey wires get crossed, and even without said decorations she had a memorable day (again in part thanks to AP, the dining steward). So we paid for it ($47?) and got nothing. My wife tried to go to the Guest Services desk several times but the line was so long, she gave up. Finally on the last day she called (rather than stand in line) and the woman’s reaction was “Why didn’t you tell us?!” While I don’t think she meant to blame the customer, our response essentially, but much more politely should be interpreted “because your lines are so horribly long and inefficient that we’d rather bask in the sun than stand in your lines!” Ultimately we got the amount refunded, but I didn’t appreciate the attitude (which I heard twice, per above). • Royal Caribbean’s cheapness I’m an MBA and I well understand queuing theory. I also own my own company and well understand costs. But Royal Caribbean took it to parsimonious levels. For instance there is no shampoo in the rooms. Not a big deal, I have my own, but I noticed as I started to suspect that Royal Caribbean was desperately trying to maximize profits. Even things like pens, which you find in every hotel room, became conspicuously absent. When I noticed that they were closing bars, and never really had enough people to service people, I realized Royal Carribean wasn’t trying to supply an amazing experience but rather had sophisticated cost containment strategies in place, and were willing to sustain long queues, angry customers, and knew that people will endure frustration rather than complain. You should realize this when you book. It’s not immoral, but it is annoying. o Consider the picture ‘package’. They want $147 for 10 pictures, $250 for 20, and ultimately $417 for all pictures. That’s fine, if ridiculous, but they have signs everywhere saying ‘no cameras’ e.g. in the kids area, rock wall, etc… o Pro tip: If you are travelling in a group use 1 cabin number and just pay the $400+ and get all the pictures. • Excursions. Simply stated: Book your excursions on shore. The markups RC charge are ridiculous and again, I suspect, due to their need to recoup in other areas. The one advantage is that if you buy an RC excursion on tender days, you can go to the front of the line. Again, the implication being that if you buy through them, you can get reasonable service levels. o Pro Tip: Heck you can follow the Royal Caribbean people to the excursion and do it yourself for $100s less. And there are always numerous people on shore, just past the end of Royal Caribbean’s area who will offer many more things, usually for 25-33% less. o The Chica Itzen tour. Our boat was late leaving Cozumel as a family was late by 40 minutes returning from an RC excursion. Because of this (the ship waited for them) the captain blamed the family in announcing our late arrival into Grand Cayman… and ‘strong head winds’ (there were amazingly strong head winds). But what I found in talking to them was that Chica Itzen is 3 hours away, and so when you get there, RC says “you have 15 minutes” to explore something that people usually spend a full day at. The family said, “heck no, we’re going to explore for 45 minutes” with the result of being late. While I can certainly find fault with that family’s decision, RC too must bear some blame. And the captain using it as an excuse for our late arrival into Grand Cayman during that evening’s announcements (yet never going more than 16 KPH) seems petty and unfair. Again, I will let the circumstances speak for themselves, as this is conjecture on my part. • Wifi. My wife got the package because she wanted to continue with work, as she could. The wifi is operable… but s-l-o-w. It is frustratingly slow. Given that you can pay anywhere from $20-$40 / day, I would expect functional Wifi. o Recommendation: Don’t use the internet. You’ll be frustrated and it’ll just annoy you. Focus on your vacation. Also there are several shipboard terminals if you really need it. Read Less
Sail Date November 2015
This was our first cruise and we were so excited! We arrived on time and had to wait 3 hours (with a baby) to board the ship. We bought a drink package, but didn't realize they were charging us every day for the entire 8 days. That is ... Read More
This was our first cruise and we were so excited! We arrived on time and had to wait 3 hours (with a baby) to board the ship. We bought a drink package, but didn't realize they were charging us every day for the entire 8 days. That is partially our fault for not reading the fine print, however, we were never given a receipt to sign and were pretty upset at the end of the week when they charged is $400 for a drink package we barely used. I went to customer service and asked to see the receipt, and they didn't have a signed one on file for us. They said, oh we are sorry, you should have been made aware of how the drink packages work. They admitted we never signed anything authorizing them to charge our credit card but would do nothing to help us out. That's what was so frustrating. Yes, it was our fault but it was their fault too. They could have done something to help us, being that we barely used it. The whole experience left a bad taste in our mouths for this cruise line. Also, there was always sometime trying to sell you something...that got annoying. However, our room attendant, Ricky was awesome! And our servers Michael and Marcelo were wonderful as well. Read Less
Sail Date November 2015
First off I would like to say that this was my first cruise and my wifes 11th and I was very excited and looking forward to this trip for months and then this all happened. Check in took 2.5 hours as their computers were down, so we ... Read More
First off I would like to say that this was my first cruise and my wifes 11th and I was very excited and looking forward to this trip for months and then this all happened. Check in took 2.5 hours as their computers were down, so we were herded under a shelter to wait in line as it was raining very hard, all guest luggage was put onto trollies but were left out in the rain, everyone's bags got soaked and clothes as well, we tried our best to dry them but went to our first dinner in damp clothing. Because all our clothes were wet in the case for so long they got a musty smell so we used the ships laundry service and it took 2 full days to get the clothing back, needless to say, I was in the same shirt for three days, I wasn't happy. I had to buy shirts in Haiti just to get bye. We decided to buy the drink package for myself but not for my wife as she only had the occasional drink, the front desk made a mistake and put the drink package on sharons card and not mine so I was still being billed. The next day I went back to the front desk and told them and was told, it did not matter as the cards were linked together that I would not be billed. Happy about this I went back to my vacation at the bar. Later that night I checked the bill on the tv in our room and of course it was not fixed. So for a third time I went back to the front desk and explained again. They then corrected the problem and the drink package was put on my card. I also asked at this point about the charges for those drinks as they never should have been on there in the first place, the front desk manager agreed and removed the charges. The next day I checked our tv account again and found that the charges had been removed and then put back on again. So of course, now for a fourth time, I had to go back to the front desk and ask what was going on? as you can imagine, by this point I am very frustrated and lining up for a half our every day to fix the same problem over and over was annoying. I was told that the charge was put back on by the bar manager and I would have to speak with him. They called him down and I had to explain myself to him just like I did every other day to the front desk staff, and yes now that he knew the situation and what error was made he then took off the charges again. Food: The one thing I had heard about cruising was that the food was amazing, we found the very first night fantastic, I don't think I had ever had prime rib that tender, simply awesome and the service was excellent. It went down hill from here though. Every other piece of beef was tough or loaded with fat, we found ourselves ordering another dinner or just going to the buffet. One of our nights we went to Chops Grille, my wife ordered the fillet mignon and I had the 12oz strip loin, hers was a little tough and mine was like leather, I had a steak knife but felt like I was using a butter knife, I ate 1/4 of the steak and called the waiter, I told him that I could not eat this, he then said "I will tell him, and what can I get you for desert" I said another steak would be nice, so he handed me the desert menu, we ordered desert and left without eating it as both our appetites were gone. We did enjoy the breakfast buffet in the windjammer, and if you liked your scrambled eggs with the texture of vanilla pudding then you would have loved it or if you liked your sunny side up eggs undercooked then this was the place for you. Other than the eggs I did enjoy the rest of their food, and I really liked all the fresh buns, very nice. Music: This would have been great if we had it everyday. Instead we got tennis, yes I said tennis, EVERY DAY!! When out on deck all you heard every day was the sounds of two men grunting as they hit the ball with their tennis rackets. The big screen played tennis or football with the volume on every day. No music at the bars or the pool, just tennis. There was a live band on two of the days out at the pool, and on those days, once the band had finished about 5 songs, the DJ would play music till they came back, but once they were done, so was the music. The only time people on our ship got to dance and listen to music was when we were in port and parked beside another ship that was playing music. This was an onboard joke at the bars after awhile, because it did not feel like a vacation on board at all without music. I guess if I was a tennis lover, this would have been a dream vacation. My wife kept telling new people we would meet on the first and second day that this was my first cruise, and all said the same thing "you are going to love it" by day 5 and 6, those same people were saying to me, "don't let this sour you on cruising, its normally much better than this". For awhile I was just thinking that it was me, that maybe cruising just wasn't for me, but after speaking and making so many new friends I found that everyone was disappointed in some way, shape or form. Upon arrival to Haiti I was up early, 6am, excited to pull into port, I had just opened the patio door to the balcony when the engines made a weird sound and a large plume of thick black smoke poured over the back of the ship and completely engulfed our balcony, I honestly thought the ship was on fire it was that bad, our room smelled of diesel fumes for the next couple of hours. I asked one of the cleaners if there was a problem with the ship and was told no. But clearly over the next two days we were running on one engine only. I asked the front desk about the smoke and was told this was normal. I said normal to fill a room with thick black smoke and laughed. Later on in the trip they shut the elevators down for a test on an emergency generator (or so they said) I sat on my balcony listening to the engine trying to start and watching for more think black smoke, there was some smoke but once it was running again the smoke went away and we were now clearly running on two engines. If we did lose an engine I understand not to tell the passengers so they don't panic, but to tell me that black smoke in my room was normal, well that's just laughable. When we got back we complained to Royal Caribbean and they offered us a $250 voucher for each of us that we must use by the end of the 2016 or it expires. So what they are saying is, "spend another $4200 with us and we will give you $500 off". This to us does not feel like RC really cares about its customers and we will never travel with them again. Read Less
Sail Date November 2015
Being in hospitality myself, it requires foundational customer service skills that are not reflected in Royal Caribbean's core values. I booked this cruise with two best friends to celebrate our 30th birthday. Although it seemed ... Read More
Being in hospitality myself, it requires foundational customer service skills that are not reflected in Royal Caribbean's core values. I booked this cruise with two best friends to celebrate our 30th birthday. Although it seemed hopeful, the booking process was relentlessly stressful and needless to say we will probably not be booking again. Our sales rep was helpful up until he made the sale. Once we made our deposit, he had disappeared without a trace. I left several voicemails as well as numerous emails with questions regarding our trip as I had been a first time cruiser. He never returned one voicemail or one email to this day. The final payment process became even more strenuous when we realized the due date to be paid in full was within the week. Regardless of the lack of help from our sales rep, we paid based on the invoice sent. The month before our sail date, I called him again to inquire about a shuttle from Houston airport to the Galveston port. I was met with quite the shock to find out that Royal Caribbean had decided to cancel our cruise due to a remaining balance. Immediately I pressed zero to speak to ANY representative in order to correct this horrible mistake. I had not received any cancellation notice via email and I was in complete horror that our vacation was canceled. After an hour of being transferred to at least 3 people, I learned that our sales rep had added a vacation protection plan which was Not included on the only invoice that he emailed me. Therefore, we never knew we had a remaining balance and were extremely frustrated how Royal Caribbean had handled our situation. Not once was there an apology but rather blame on the us, the customer, for not knowing. Finally after 90 minutes of pleading with the customer service department, I spoke with Geneva Harrison and Samantha Koomen who were both a breath of fresh air and the glimpse of hope that rescued our vacation. These 2 ladies exuded empathy by pausing to reflect our feeling of distress and offered a solution. Although it wasn't ideal, they were able to apply our penalty to the cruise originally booked and I paid the difference in full over the phone. We couldn't get the original price so I paid the rack rate. The additional amount of money spent could have paid for a second cruise however I was completely grateful for the two women that owned the situation and were willing to come up with a recovery solution. These two individuals should be recognized for their distinct skill set that includes positivity, empathy, patience and professionalism which defines customer service. We were anxious as our sail date approached; hoping that we wouldn't deal with any other problems. Boarding the ship was a smooth process however the guest service/ front desk team on the ship was a mirror image of the phone operators with misinformation. Every employee at the desk gave us a different answer to the same question asked about gratuities and beverage packages. We decided that it would just be best to avoid speaking to guest services and book with another cruise line next time. When we were allowed to go to our cabins, we were informed that one of our suit cases was misplaced and would be sent to the room later in the evening around 7pm. Trying to maintain a calm attitude, our day 1 of our 7 day cruise seemed to start off disappointing. Needless to say, we were not impressed with setting sail with Royal Caribbean however we met some employees on the Navigator of the Seas that are worth mentioning. These team members brightened our day daily and Royal Caribbean should be honored to have such employees aboard their ship. Shauna and Jakob in the windjammer cafe were a great start to our morning. They were always cheerful and even if we were unable to find a seat in their section, they would find us and make sure we had our coffee and excursions set for the day. Bernadette, Gilberto, Dean, Agnelo and Bobie were absolutely delightful during our evening dinners in the Sapphire room. We never could pick who would serve us each night because each person brought a unique exuberant attitude to our dining experience. We loved our dinner conversations with each waiter and seating host as we learned about their hometowns and family life. It made the vacation more personal and created unforgettable connections. Lastly our room attendant Tanoe was fabulous. He conversed with us multiple times a day to ensure our stay was beyond expectation. Working for a hotel, I know the importance of the operations team. They run the property/ ship and are the face of the company. These employees operated their functions with pride and perfection as mere advocates for the enjoyment of their guests. None of them knew the experience we had booking the vacation however each of them created new memories and new loyalties to the Royal Caribbean family. Although Royal Caribbean has room for improvement, their employees on their ship make the vacation worth while. Read Less
Sail Date August 2015
Our stateroom attendant was Awesome!!! The dining room food was HORRIBLE. The food in the buffet was good but always cold..... We purchased a photo package and got home and our pictures are not on the disk!!! I have called RCI and NO ... Read More
Our stateroom attendant was Awesome!!! The dining room food was HORRIBLE. The food in the buffet was good but always cold..... We purchased a photo package and got home and our pictures are not on the disk!!! I have called RCI and NO HELP but to call another company... Nothing like celebrating our 25th Wedding Anniversary and even the professional photographer didn't have the camera settings right...... Very disappointing for the money we spent. Excursion in Belize got changed and Guest Relations stated it changed to something else and gave us a printout of what we were supposed to do - got tendered to the Port and the RCI representative said NO that is not the excursion we were supposed to do - went back and forth with the RCI representative and we JUST CANCELLED!!!! Got a refund from Guest Relations - Left and Right hand didn't know what was going on.... We had two families with us and we were all very disappointed because everyone always spoke highly of RCI - NOT worth the money we spent on the cruise. The entertainment was good. Embarkation - Took over 3 hours in lines to get on the ship and took over 3 hours to off the ship on the return. They need to work on getting people off the ship and out before the next round of people are trying to get on. Total Chaos!!!! Read Less
Sail Date July 2015
We are 2 seniors and we have just returned from our first cruise. The ship is beautiful and the service was excellent. What was very disappointing was the lack of entertainment during the day. We were expecting there to be bars/lounges ... Read More
We are 2 seniors and we have just returned from our first cruise. The ship is beautiful and the service was excellent. What was very disappointing was the lack of entertainment during the day. We were expecting there to be bars/lounges with live entertainment during the day. Caribbean, blues, western or jazz music would have been nice. They did have a lonely guitar player that sounded as if he should be playing background music at a wedding. They also had all kinds of trivia and games, which did appeal to families with children. We stopped on day 4 at Jamaica, then our next stop was to be Grand Cayman, but we couldn't ferry in because of rough water. The captain slowed the ship down and we sailed slowly towards Cozumel, Mexico.It was a long boring time. We got to Cozumel on day 6, and back to Galveston on day 7. Way too much sailing with very little to do. Read Less
Sail Date February 2015
We have cruised several times with several different cruise ship lines over the past 15 years. We actually cruised on the Royal Navigator of the Seas in 2006 so this was our second time aboard this very ship. I want everyone to know before ... Read More
We have cruised several times with several different cruise ship lines over the past 15 years. We actually cruised on the Royal Navigator of the Seas in 2006 so this was our second time aboard this very ship. I want everyone to know before you book your trip that we have NEVER been told NO so many times aboard ship! It was such a different experience from all of our other trips that we won't likely cruise any more. The new trend is to have everyone purchase drink cards, not just the usual 'soda pop cards' but non-alcoholic cards and alcohol cards as well. What this means is that the line already has everyone's money so they don't have very many attendants walking about asking you if you would like a drink brought to you. You now get to go stand in line and wait 20 minutes to get a drink from the bar. AND, if you purchased one of their drink cards you are told that you can only get ONE drink and that you must wait a minimum of 10 minutes to get back in line to purchase another. We don't drink alcohol so this rule wasn't just for hard drinkers. I couldn't get two bottles of water to drink after working out in the gym. What a joke. I actually was not asked if I wanted a drink of anything for two solid days. That is not what the shipboard service is suppose to be like. We also found the service in the formal dining to be changed as well...keep in mind we were on this very ship several years prior and we know what the standard service experience should be. We were sat down and given menus and expected to get our dinner orders submitted ASAP. We asked to start with drinks (non-alcololic for us) and the waiter actually became irritated. We ended up drinking water and hurrying thru our dinner. Second night he attempted to do the same and we told him no. We insisted that he go find a bar attendant for us so we could order drinks prior to placing our food orders. Our waiter did weird things like giving menus to two men at our table and not giving menus to the ladies for several minutes. Things like that shouldn't happen with upscale dining. Also, the waiter wouldn't bring me a cappuccino coffee with my dessert stating that my drink card did not provide for after dinner coffee. I ended up standing for 30 minutes in the service desk line the next day to get that resolved. So stupid that the employees of the ship don't know their own rules. Every bar tender had a different excuse as to why I couldn't receive a free drink with my drink card as well as the amount of time I had to wait to order a second one. The only high light was the room steward who took great care of us during our trip and one particular waiter that came to us each evening in the dining room (starting on day 3 ! but that wasn't his fault). Those two men were the only people who made our ship board experience special...everyone else acted like the passengers were just in their way. Also note that if you purchase the drink card that they charge you for each day you are aboard the ship; however, they will not serve you any drinks on the last day as they state that the cards no longer work on the day that you disembark even though you paid for that day! I don't know yet if all ship lines are moving to this type of service; but my guess is that they are...just like anytime dining is now the standard fare option on most ships too now. New cruisers will not realize that they are receiving substandard service but past cruisers know what the service standards were and will definitely be unhappy with what is being given now. I would rather stay in a hotel and eat in a regular restaurant and get up and go order my own drink from a bar without paying many thousands of dollars that we pay for cruising. I use to think the extra costs were worth it because of the special service that you received onboard. Not any more... The room was tight as far as size but well appointed and beds were very comfortable. We had a third person in our room (our daughter) and her bed was hanging directly over the main bed in the room. We didn't like that layout but were unaware of how the extra bed was set up. Last ship we were on the extra bed was a fold out from the sofa which was much better FYI   Read Less
Sail Date June 2014
Navigator of the Seas Ratings
Category Editor Member
Cabins 4.5 4.3
Dining 4.5 3.9
Entertainment 5.0 3.8
Public Rooms 4.0 4.2
Fitness Recreation 4.0 4.1
Family 5.0 4.1
Shore Excursion 4.0 3.7
Enrichment 2.0 3.4
Service 4.5 4.3
Value For Money 4.5 3.8
Rates 4.5 4.2

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